Dec. 10, 2024

From the Vault! Empowering Change: Sharon McMahon on Unsung Heroes, Patriotism, and Local Action

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Season 3

For episode 102, we're re-releasing our interview with THE Sharon McMahon, AKA @SharonSaysSo on Instagram. Enjoy!

Original Air Date: October 22, 2024

Connect with Sharon:


Connect with USS: United SHE Stands Instagram

This episode was edited by Kevin Tanner. Learn more about him and his services here:


If you purchase from any links to resources or products, the show may make a small commission.

Chapters

00:00 - Unsung American History

05:12 - Working Within and Without

18:25 - Starting Small

27:11 - Empowering Ordinary People for Change

38:15 - Reclaiming True Patriotism

43:36 - Choosing Hope in Changing Times

Transcript
WEBVTT

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Stop thinking about trying to get your senator's attention and start thinking about trying to make changes at a level that you have a better chance of influencing.

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People actually have a tremendous amount of influence over their school boards.

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They actually have a tremendous amount of influence over their city councils.

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There's a really good chance if you email your city counselor, there's a very good chance they're going to get back to you, city councilor.

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there's a very good chance.

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They're going to get back to you.

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Welcome back to the United she Stands podcast, the show that brings kindness and women into politics.

00:00:35.945 --> 00:00:44.723
I'm Ashley and I'm Sarah, and we're two women from Ohio who are here to become more educated about American politics and build a community so we can all get involved and make an impact together.

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We hope we'll inspire and empower you along the way.

00:00:58.250 --> 00:01:03.597
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the United she Stands podcast.

00:01:03.597 --> 00:01:06.843
We are so excited to share this week's episode with you.

00:01:06.843 --> 00:01:15.302
Sarah and I had the incredible opportunity to interview Sharon McMahon, and if you don't know who Sharon is, well, you are absolutely missing out, and we're about to get you all caught up.

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Sharon McMahon was a high school government and law teacher for years before taking her passion for education to Instagram, where more than a million people who affectionately call themselves govern nerds, rely on her for nonpartisan, fact-based information as America's government teacher.

00:01:32.382 --> 00:01:34.912
You can find her on Instagram at Sharon Says so.

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In a time where flashy headlines and false information often take the spotlight, sharon is a reliable source for truth and logic.

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Sharon is also the host of the award-winning podcast here's when it Gets Interesting, where each week, she provides entertaining yet factual accounts of America's most fascinating moments and people.

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In all that she does, sharon encourages others to be world-changing humans.

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She has led her community in various philanthropic initiatives that have raised more than $9 million for teachers, domestic violence survivors, terminally ill children, medical debt forgiveness programs, refugees and more.

00:02:07.787 --> 00:02:12.287
In addition, she is the author of the Preamble, a Substack newsletter about politics and history.

00:02:12.287 --> 00:02:21.129
Sarah and I are both huge fans and we have been consuming her content for years now on Instagram and through her podcast, and we are also both recent subscribers to her newsletter.

00:02:21.819 --> 00:02:36.032
And the reason we ended up getting to interview her well, the stars aligned and they were just really like looking out for us that day but also because Sharon is now an author, and not just an author but a New York Times bestselling author.

00:02:36.032 --> 00:02:54.590
Her book the Small and the Mighty 12 Unsung Americans who Changed the Course of History from the founding to the civil rights movement, was released on September 24th 2024, and landed at number one on the New York Times bestseller list, number one in USA Today's bestsellers and number one on all of Amazon.

00:02:54.590 --> 00:02:59.977
And I just finished it last night and loved it, and Ashley's in the middle of it and is also loving it.

00:02:59.977 --> 00:03:01.942
So we definitely recommend you go check it out.

00:03:02.443 --> 00:03:03.243
Definitely so.

00:03:03.243 --> 00:03:08.133
In her book, she discovers history's unsung characters and brings their rich, riveting stories to light.

00:03:08.133 --> 00:03:21.911
For the first time, you'll meet a woman, astride, a white horse riding down Pennsylvania Avenue, a young boy detained at a Japanese incarceration camp, a formerly enslaved woman on a mission to reunite with her daughter, a poet on a train and a teacher who learns to work with her enemies.

00:03:21.911 --> 00:03:28.776
More than one thing is bombed and multiple people surprisingly become rich, some rich with money and some wealthy with things that matter more.

00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:38.292
Through Sharon's meticulous research, she has recreated the pivotal lives of 12 everyday Americans who did the next needed thing during times when the odds were stacked against them.

00:03:38.292 --> 00:03:44.943
In doing so, they all managed to positively change the lives of those around them and the lives of those who would come after them.

00:03:45.324 --> 00:03:48.171
So, without further ado, here is our conversation with Sharon.

00:03:58.881 --> 00:04:01.645
Okay, we are going to jump right in then.

00:04:01.645 --> 00:04:08.465
What made you decide to write a book on the Small and the Mighty, and who are the Small and the Mighty?

00:04:10.128 --> 00:04:28.002
The Small and the Mighty are what I call the auroras of history, the auroras being sort of this concept of the northern lights that exist only during the pre-dawn hours, when most of us are asleep, and the idea that they don't actually go away when the sun comes up.

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You just can't see them anymore.

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And history is full of people like that.

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History is full of people whose stories have been eclipsed by the dominant sons, by the people with the political power and the most guns and all of the cash and the weirdly shaped rocket ships that blast off into space.

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There's so many people like that in history that it's so easy.

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It's both easy for us to forget people who did not have the access to the levers of power, and it's also, in some cases, intentional that these people have been excluded from history, and often it is these stories that I find the most interesting.

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So that's how that happened.

00:05:12.732 --> 00:05:18.829
Those kind of moments are just tremendously interesting to me, and I hear from so many people that they're interesting to them as well.

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Listen, we have had enough books on George Washington.

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Okay, we get it.

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Yes, exactly, had enough books on George Washington.

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Okay, we get it.

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Yes, we understand Okay.

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He had dentures and he was tall.

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Okay, yes, you know what I mean Like there's no, there's no.

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Yes, george Washington is worth learning about.

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Of course he is, but nevertheless there are literally thousands of stories that changed the course of history in the United States that we just are never learning about.

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And again, I'm a longtime teacher.

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This is no shade to teachers who are doing the impossible, who don't have enough time in the day to be like no, let's learn about somebody obscure.

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They don't have enough time to do all the things they need to do, as it already is, but often it is these stories that I find the most fascinating and also the most inspirational.

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Like I draw the most inspiration from people without access to the levers of power.

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I don't have billions of dollars, I'm not the president, I don't have a nightly TV show where millions of people are watching me, I don't have, like, all of the access to make things happen in this country, and yet these people are fantastic examples of what you can do despite that.

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And I just like there's just something in my brain that like lights up reading about and talking about people like that.

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Yeah, absolutely, and I've even felt that just with, like I said, the first half of your book I've been through.

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It's been really I have.

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I've found it so inspirational and just interesting to learn about these people who are doing what they can like with where they are.

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It's really, really cool yeah.

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Yeah, I am still amazed and feel bad for Morris, I think the first Gouverneur Morris yes, he wasn't.

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He's not in the play at all and he seems like how did he not make it?

00:07:03.807 --> 00:07:05.769
I'm just so confused by that.

00:07:05.928 --> 00:07:19.120
Yeah, I know, gouverneur Morris doesn't make it, and neither does John Adams, although John Adams is mentioned.

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John Adams, good luck there's that.

00:07:19.963 --> 00:07:37.005
He's at least mentioned, right, yeah, why isn't Morris mentioned when he is at Hamilton's bedside, when he dies, when he is there, when Hamilton's autopsy is conducted, when he eulogizes him at his funeral, when he's one of the pallbearers of his casket?

00:07:37.005 --> 00:07:38.492
Why doesn't he make it?

00:07:38.492 --> 00:07:42.444
And maybe we'll have to ask Lin-Manuel Miranda that question someday.

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Yeah, I would love to get him on the line and ask him what's up with that.

00:07:46.805 --> 00:07:50.261
Yeah, let me know, book him on the show and ask him that question Will do.

00:07:50.822 --> 00:07:51.524
Will do.

00:07:51.564 --> 00:07:51.865
Yeah.

00:07:52.466 --> 00:07:58.726
Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about this idea of working within the system before we can tear it down.

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So one example of someone who did this in your book was Virginia Randolph, and you tell her story, the story about how Virginia was basically criticized for working within the system versus focusing on tearing it down like somewhere.

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With folks just in today's world being disengaged, feeling discouraged and many people thinking our system is broken.

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Can you just talk about this idea a little bit more?

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How does this idea of working within the system before tearing it down relate to us today?

00:08:27.531 --> 00:08:38.823
It's a great question and it's very relevant today because there are so many people who feel like, listen, I don't like any of these options, right, I don't like candidate A or B.

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I want a candidate who has bigger ideas, that is not going to just operate within this very dysfunctional system of American government, which we all agree.

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There's nobody who's like two thumbs up, it's all going great.

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You know like nobody thinks that.

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Everyone realizes that this is kind of it's bananas, that Congress is broken.

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It does not work on behalf of the American public.

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There's like we all have a million beefs that we would like to fix when it comes to government.

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But here is one of the lessons that I take away, not just from Virginia, but from other people in this book too, although she's a great example of it Two things have to happen at the same time in an effort to make lasting change, because it's very easy for quick changes to be made and then for those changes to be easily undone when the next administration comes in or whatever it is.

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Two things have to happen.

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Somebody has to be working within the system, right, filing the court cases, getting funding, access to, you know, whatever.

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Somebody needs to be working within this, and then there are people who need to be impacting lives outside of the system too, and both of these things, when these things coalesce, this is what leads to lasting change.

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This is how we get women's suffrage, this is how we get civil rights.

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It's people doing both.

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It's not only people going around on the hamster wheel of government change being like well, I can't believe Bob got elected, and blah, blah, blah.

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You know what I mean.

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This is an important component, but what happens on this government hamster wheel is often very influenced by the people who are working out here, by the people who were incarcerated in Japanese American incarceration camps, by people who are denied equal access to education, by people who are denied access to the ballot box.

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Both of these things have to happen.

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So if only this is happening, like I'm gesturing towards the people working outside the system, that's how you get violent, bloody revolution that is easy to then topple again because there's no stability within that system.

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Within the system is from where the stability comes, and this is one of the both infuriating things about American government and also one of the hallmarks of American government is that it's inflexible and difficult to change, and that's stupid.

00:11:02.224 --> 00:11:06.981
Many times I hate it and difficult to change, and that's stupid.

00:11:06.981 --> 00:11:16.115
Many times I hate it, but additionally, what it does is provide a level of stability that other democracies have not had, and this is why American democracy is almost 250 years old and nobody else can say the same thing.

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It is a system that is built to be slow to change but stable.

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So you need these external forces putting pressure on the system to change the system.

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So to your point about working within the system.

00:11:30.586 --> 00:11:52.643
It is one of the very important components for lasting change is working within the existing 250-year-old system almost, and, as infuriating as that can be for some people who want to just like burn it to the ground, you have absolutely no guarantee that what it will be replaced with is not worse.

00:11:52.643 --> 00:12:05.774
What it will be replaced with, power can be usurped by an unscrupulous human who seizes a moment and does more to reverse the rights of humans than it does to advance them.

00:12:05.774 --> 00:12:11.873
They say, be careful what you wish for, and that is absolutely true of revolution.

00:12:11.873 --> 00:12:13.745
Be careful what you wish for.

00:12:14.268 --> 00:12:21.333
Yeah, I really like that point because I do think it's so easy to be frustrated but it's sometimes harder to remember.

00:12:21.333 --> 00:12:34.827
There is some good to that things being hard to change, because I do think we all want to see progress, but, to your point, it has to be fought for and, as frustrating as that can be, it can also be kind of a good thing.

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Most progress requires a significant amount of struggle, and humans don't like to struggle.

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We don't.

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We're hardwired that way.

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If it's too hard, we don't want to do it.

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That's just how our brains work.

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We want to conserve the calories.

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Right, our brains are using the most calories of anything Like.

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Your brain uses way more calories than running a marathon each day, you know.

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So.

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Your brain wants to conserve energy and it wants to protect you and it wants you to feel safe and it doesn't want your life to be hard.

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And so when it seems like, why must I struggle?

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I must be doing it wrong, I must be.

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You know, we have a tendency to shy away from it.

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We have a tendency to be like never mind, the system is too corrupt, never mind, you know like we want to give up.

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You know like we want to give up.

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And stories like this in this book, I think, illustrate the point that our ancestors did not give up in the face of adversity and they did not grow weary in doing good.

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And I think it's too easy for us to grow weary in doing good today, when we have robots that deliver packages to our houses.

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You know, what I mean when it's easy for us to grow weary because struggle seems like something we're entitled not to do.

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We're entitled to not have to struggle, when that's never been the human perspective.

00:14:00.548 --> 00:14:04.567
People have always struggled and suffered, and that was just how life was.

00:14:04.567 --> 00:14:08.553
It's always been hard and now you have a reasonable chance of living to an adulthood.

00:14:08.553 --> 00:14:16.710
You have a reasonable chance of not being killed by your infected tooth, right Like you can go to the dentist, get it removed, get some antibiotics.

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You're going to live till tomorrow.

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It's going to hurt for a while but it's going to be fine.

00:14:19.621 --> 00:14:31.063
We've made so much progress that it seems like struggle feels wrong, when in reality that's how real change happens.

00:14:31.063 --> 00:14:35.052
Is the struggle Very often, yeah absolutely Two things.

00:14:35.581 --> 00:14:57.351
That was something else that I noticed throughout your book how many people, including children, did not live out their parents and just like there was so much death and yeah, it was, I know at one specific part you said I don't even remember who it was, but they could have survived if penicillin was in existence at that point in time.

00:14:57.732 --> 00:14:59.601
So yeah, that was crazy to me.

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But also, just to wrap things up on the working within a broken system, I think it makes it more manageable to actually participate.

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You know you're not going to go in or it's a whole lot harder to go in and completely blow up the whole system.

00:15:17.086 --> 00:15:20.730
You know that, hey, that's probably really impossible.

00:15:20.730 --> 00:15:35.044
It's a lot more manageable and a smaller bite of you know whatever to bite off, to actually just participate within what we currently have set up and just try to do and make, you know, make the best of it.

00:15:35.044 --> 00:15:45.885
So I think and I think that's something that Ashley and I have experienced with creating this podcast you know, starting with something small to participate and help make the world a better place.

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We're not, you know, blowing up our whole system and democracy by making this podcast, but I do think we are, you know, providing an outlet and educational resources for folks who, you know, are in kind of the same kind of the same wavelength that we're in, and I think that makes a huge difference.

00:16:05.371 --> 00:16:09.163
Yeah, I agree that it feels less overwhelming.

00:16:09.163 --> 00:16:16.923
If you're like we need to start from scratch, how does one do that in a country of 335 million people?

00:16:16.923 --> 00:16:18.985
How do we start from scratch?

00:16:18.985 --> 00:16:24.352
If that's the task, that seems like never mind right?

00:16:24.452 --> 00:16:38.004
exactly, yeah yeah, if you think about how tiny the colonies were, you know, like we like to, we like to hold up the american revolution is like, oh, a small group of dudes with muskets.

00:16:38.004 --> 00:16:51.783
Look at what they took on the british empire, you know, and, yeah, to an extent that's true, um, but they, a lot of the dudes, were also domestic terrorists that took on the British Empire Quite literally.

00:16:51.783 --> 00:16:54.024
We would put those dudes in prison today.

00:16:54.024 --> 00:16:56.806
Do you want domestic terrorism in each state?

00:16:56.806 --> 00:16:57.206
Capital?

00:16:57.206 --> 00:16:58.126
Is that an interest?

00:16:58.126 --> 00:16:59.246
Is that of interest to you?

00:16:59.246 --> 00:17:00.788
Do you know what I mean?

00:17:00.827 --> 00:17:01.947
Like most people would say no.

00:17:01.947 --> 00:17:02.629
Is that of interest to?

00:17:02.688 --> 00:17:31.440
you know, romanticize to the extent of like, oh, they were the true patriots, yeah, they did some really interesting things that we should still study.

00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:38.604
But uh, shouldn't we also celebrate the fact that we no longer use political violence to achieve things like?

00:17:38.663 --> 00:17:40.268
isn't that what's celebrating?

00:17:40.268 --> 00:17:42.673
Seems like maybe even a larger win.

00:17:42.673 --> 00:17:44.507
Yeah, yeah, yeah just a thought.

00:17:44.547 --> 00:17:47.203
We don't blow up people's houses to achieve stuff anymore.

00:17:47.203 --> 00:17:51.951
Okay, seems like a win yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:17:53.054 --> 00:17:56.288
So let's talk along the lines of being disengaged.

00:17:56.288 --> 00:17:58.596
We know people feel powerless.

00:17:58.596 --> 00:18:06.500
I think we kind of were dancing around um that a bit in the that last question and we've spent the past two years getting informed and engaging.

00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:07.762
So we're no.

00:18:07.762 --> 00:18:20.642
We, like I said, we know we're not without power, we know we are making a difference, but how can we help fight the sentiment that others feel of being power, powerless, and why is it so important for us to do so?

00:18:20.662 --> 00:18:22.284
Yeah, that's a really great question.

00:18:22.284 --> 00:18:22.523
Us to do so?

00:18:22.523 --> 00:18:23.904
Yeah, that's a really great question.

00:18:23.904 --> 00:18:28.651
The idea that nothing I do makes a difference.

00:18:28.651 --> 00:18:31.394
That's a really normal way to feel.

00:18:31.394 --> 00:18:32.976
That's how a lot of people feel.

00:18:32.976 --> 00:18:39.962
You're like, but I wrote the letters and I voted.

00:18:39.962 --> 00:18:41.247
You know what I mean Nothing changed.

00:18:41.247 --> 00:18:41.910
It's a very common way to feel.

00:18:41.910 --> 00:18:46.528
So if anybody's listening to this feels that way, know that it doesn't mean that the struggle, because it's a struggle, doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

00:18:46.528 --> 00:18:47.451
It's normal.

00:18:47.740 --> 00:18:50.670
But here's what I would encourage somebody to think about.

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We all talk about how we want to make a difference in the world right, but the world is big and there's a lot of problems.

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We could be here all day and all night talking about all the problems of the world and it seems like somehow it's our job to fix all the problems and to also to care about all the problems equally.

00:19:12.643 --> 00:19:18.342
That I have to care equally about rainforest deforestation and I need to also save the manatees.

00:19:18.342 --> 00:19:25.373
Additionally, I need to prevent every childhood vaccine preventable disease.

00:19:25.373 --> 00:19:27.320
I need to keep every child from dying of malaria.

00:19:27.320 --> 00:19:39.342
I also and I need to care about people who are not getting access to lawyers in prison, Like the list of things that we should care about is extremely long, and all those things are worth caring about they are.

00:19:39.883 --> 00:19:41.827
But there's a few things that I would do.

00:19:41.827 --> 00:19:50.626
When people feel like a sense of disengagement, because they feel hopeless, there's like, too, it's too overwhelming, and they're like how should I make a difference?

00:19:50.626 --> 00:19:52.486
I need to make a difference on all these things.

00:19:52.486 --> 00:19:53.169
I can't.

00:19:53.169 --> 00:19:58.803
I'm literally like I go to my work and I have all these kids and I'm trying to put them to bed and like I'm real tired.

00:19:58.803 --> 00:20:03.789
At the end of the day, these children want to eat 365 days a year and that's weird.

00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:04.852
Stop the game.

00:20:04.852 --> 00:20:05.873
You know what I mean.

00:20:05.893 --> 00:20:06.733
I have one of those.

00:20:06.733 --> 00:20:11.413
Yeah, yeah 365 days a year, it's crazy.

00:20:11.433 --> 00:20:12.056
We're not doing that.

00:20:12.056 --> 00:20:15.748
It's normal to feel very overwhelmed.

00:20:15.748 --> 00:20:18.788
As a human, I want to make a difference in the world, but I don't know how.

00:20:18.788 --> 00:20:30.155
The first thing to stop doing is to stop thinking you need to make a difference in the world and to start thinking about how you can make a difference in a much smaller community.

00:20:30.155 --> 00:20:34.307
How can I make a difference at my, in my town?

00:20:34.307 --> 00:20:37.114
How can I make a difference in my neighborhood?

00:20:37.114 --> 00:20:40.614
How can I make a difference in my church or my house of worship?

00:20:40.614 --> 00:20:42.382
How can I make a difference in my child's school?

00:20:42.382 --> 00:20:43.268
How can I make a difference in my office?

00:20:43.268 --> 00:20:44.375
How can I make a difference in my child's school?

00:20:44.375 --> 00:20:45.980
How can I make a difference in my office?

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:48.646
How can I make a difference in my home?

00:20:48.646 --> 00:20:55.565
And the idea that you have to make a difference in the world is too big.

00:20:55.565 --> 00:20:57.769
That's too big of an ask.

00:20:58.430 --> 00:21:10.565
Most people's communities are not the world, and most of the people in this book did not set out to make a difference in the quote unquote world.

00:21:10.565 --> 00:21:18.627
They set out to make a difference in a specific time and place and they often did not have grand designs of like.

00:21:18.627 --> 00:21:22.201
Here's my 25 part plan for how I'll make a difference in the world.

00:21:22.201 --> 00:21:29.330
They just kept doing the next needed thing, and for some people that was a much larger impact because they had more money.

00:21:29.330 --> 00:21:34.151
Some of us have really large platforms and so we have the ear of more people.

00:21:34.151 --> 00:21:38.690
Some of us teach preschool and we deal with 12 three-year-olds all day long.

00:21:39.050 --> 00:21:49.243
You know what I mean, and the idea that somehow I'm supposed to make a difference in the world is not an idea that almost any of our ancestors grappled with.

00:21:49.243 --> 00:21:57.210
They thought about making a difference in their immediate communities and for some people that grew.

00:21:57.210 --> 00:22:02.430
You know, like you think about, like the FDRs and the Teddy Roosevelt's and whatever, who are born into money.

00:22:02.430 --> 00:22:14.916
They started out by like making a difference in New York City, which was a lot smaller at the time, and then that grew into like state government or, in the case of Teddy Roosevelt, the police department.

00:22:14.916 --> 00:22:18.953
And then that grew into like, okay, maybe I'll be in Congress.

00:22:18.953 --> 00:22:21.006
Teddy Roosevelt did all kinds of weird stuff.

00:22:21.006 --> 00:22:22.608
We talk about him a different time, but you know what I mean.

00:22:22.608 --> 00:22:35.403
Their capacity grew as their influence grew, but neither of them set out to be like I am going to.

00:22:35.403 --> 00:22:43.308
Someday there's going to be a war and I'm going to be the leader that gets us through the war, and you know like they didn't have these big grand designs.

00:22:43.308 --> 00:22:53.874
So I'm not saying there's nothing worth planning for, but when you stop thinking about making a difference in the world and start thinking about thinking about making a difference in your community.

00:22:53.874 --> 00:22:58.335
And start thinking about making a difference in your community and if it seems too overwhelming, shrink your community.

00:22:58.335 --> 00:23:09.059
Make it about the people at your office or the people in your friend group or the people in your neighborhood or the people in your house of worship.

00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:19.151
Shrink your community until it feels like it's a manageable size and from there your influence and capacity can grow.

00:23:19.270 --> 00:23:21.233
I've been a teacher most of my life.

00:23:21.233 --> 00:23:42.178
At no point when I was in college did I think to myself someday I will be on a giant book tour in rooms of 3,000 people who are paying to hear what I'm saying, or that I have millions of people reading what I write, that five and a half million people read my articles every month.

00:23:42.178 --> 00:23:47.836
If you had told me that when I was 19 years old in college, I would have run away from that.

00:23:47.836 --> 00:23:49.767
That would have been paralyzing, right.

00:23:49.767 --> 00:23:58.320
But my capacity has grown as I have flexed the muscles that I have spent years developing.

00:23:58.320 --> 00:24:02.576
Very few people actually are like overnight sensations.

00:24:02.576 --> 00:24:04.210
That's not real.

00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:05.795
You know what I mean?

00:24:05.795 --> 00:24:06.849
That's not actually real.

00:24:09.133 --> 00:24:09.375
Go ahead.

00:24:09.375 --> 00:24:09.737
Oh sorry.

00:24:09.758 --> 00:24:10.564
Go ahead, no, go ahead.

00:24:10.564 --> 00:24:16.191
Sharon, I was going to say a lot of those people who are sort of like overnight sensations, air quotes, you know, like that become TikTok, famous, famous or whatever.

00:24:16.191 --> 00:24:18.771
Like what's rolled up in the road, good that one lady's net yard.

00:24:18.771 --> 00:24:21.842
Um, she's not gonna be famous in a month.

00:24:21.842 --> 00:24:22.826
Do you know what I mean?

00:24:22.826 --> 00:24:30.028
Unless she does something else, she has 15 minutes of fame, her influence, and this is no shade to her, it's just my.

00:24:30.087 --> 00:24:37.279
It's an illustration of the fact that, like overnight sensations, it's usually like a flash and a burn.

00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:38.625
They don't have.

00:24:38.625 --> 00:24:43.595
So let go of this idea that you know your capacity has.

00:24:43.595 --> 00:24:46.000
No, you have no ability to grow your own capacity.

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.830
Almost everybody in this book it's the exact same story.

00:24:49.830 --> 00:24:59.651
Their capacity increased as they grew stronger, not that they were tasked with the impossible when they were first starting out.

00:24:59.651 --> 00:25:02.999
Most of these people started small and their capacity grew.

00:25:04.046 --> 00:25:09.647
So I just I want to encourage people who are listening to this let go of the idea that changing the world is your mission.

00:25:09.647 --> 00:25:18.611
You can change the world and usually most people that change the world start really, really small and it grows from there.

00:25:18.611 --> 00:25:20.777
What's the next needed thing you could do?

00:25:20.777 --> 00:25:25.836
Maybe it's writing postcards, maybe it is bringing somebody a meal.

00:25:25.836 --> 00:25:26.396
Who's sick?

00:25:26.396 --> 00:25:29.009
What is the next needed thing you can do?

00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:35.415
The worst that can happen is you realize like, oh well, I don't need to do that thing anymore, I'll do this other needed thing over here.

00:25:35.415 --> 00:25:41.330
That's the worst that can happen is you decide I'm not going to keep doing that thing, I'm going to do this other thing over here.

00:25:41.330 --> 00:25:44.646
No work for liberty is lost.

00:25:44.646 --> 00:25:47.519
It all becomes part of the fabric of the country.

00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:50.788
You've changed the country for the better when you work for the betterment of other people.

00:25:50.788 --> 00:25:57.729
So, anyway, when people tell me that they feel hopeless, they need to right-size their communities.

00:25:57.729 --> 00:26:09.586
Stop thinking about fixing America you know what I mean, that's not the work of one person and start thinking about impacting a smaller number of people.

00:26:09.586 --> 00:26:12.556
That's actually how human society is meant to be set up.

00:26:12.984 --> 00:26:14.731
Yeah, two comments.

00:26:14.731 --> 00:26:17.053
One, we looked at your book tour dates.

00:26:17.053 --> 00:26:20.291
We unfortunately couldn't make it to any of them, but if you come to Ohio, let us know.

00:26:20.291 --> 00:26:23.211
I really would love to be in that room.

00:26:23.211 --> 00:26:29.450
But second, I just want to kind of comment on this whole idea that you just articulated really so well.

00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:39.855
It actually hit me like a couple of weeks ago you had an Instagram post and I think it said like if it's a problem we're solving, it's worth solving for one person.

00:26:39.855 --> 00:26:47.646
And I don't know why, but that line alone just resonated so much and I was like because I do think even I'll say this, even with the podcast we feel this way.

00:26:47.646 --> 00:26:51.651
We were kind of like how can we like help Ohio, how can we help the United States?

00:26:51.651 --> 00:27:01.645
It's like sometimes that's such a good reminder, I think, for people to just start with one thing, start with one person even, and how can that make a difference?

00:27:01.645 --> 00:27:08.549
And the example that you gave was if it's worth solving childhood hunger feed one kid.

00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:10.153
I just really hit home Totally.

00:27:10.994 --> 00:27:11.335
Thank you.

00:27:11.335 --> 00:27:14.791
And nobody would say to a surgeon that saves one person's life.

00:27:14.791 --> 00:27:23.430
Nobody would be like, oh my gosh, you haven't ended car accidents nationwide, so your efforts were in vain.

00:27:23.430 --> 00:27:26.115
You only saved one person today and one person tomorrow.

00:27:26.115 --> 00:27:29.329
That's not nearly the number of car accidents that have happened.

00:27:29.329 --> 00:27:30.272
Do you know what I mean?

00:27:30.272 --> 00:27:31.355
We would never say that.

00:27:31.355 --> 00:27:32.826
We would be like dang.

00:27:32.826 --> 00:27:36.835
That person actually is changing the world by saving one life at a time.

00:27:36.835 --> 00:27:43.353
Who knows what that one person whose life is saved will grow up to do or what they will do in the future?

00:27:43.353 --> 00:27:51.297
We would never say that to somebody who's saving one person's life, but yet somehow that's the standard we're holding ourselves to.

00:27:51.297 --> 00:27:53.871
That's not the standard we hold anyone else to.

00:27:53.871 --> 00:27:58.852
Oh my gosh, you only taught 12 three-year-olds this year.

00:27:58.852 --> 00:28:01.176
Loser, you know what I mean.

00:28:01.176 --> 00:28:08.238
That's not the standard we're holding anyone else to, but yet somehow that's what we envision for ourselves.

00:28:08.238 --> 00:28:09.407
No, how about?

00:28:09.407 --> 00:28:11.674
Hold yourself to the same standards you would hold other people.

00:28:11.674 --> 00:28:15.733
What you're doing is important, the end, yeah.

00:28:16.355 --> 00:28:17.597
Yeah, such a good message, I love it.

00:28:18.085 --> 00:28:18.946
It absolutely is.

00:28:18.946 --> 00:28:22.595
And just one quick comment on the next needed thing.

00:28:22.595 --> 00:28:26.451
That was also, you know, throughout your book and I loved that.

00:28:26.451 --> 00:28:28.777
That is something that I struggle with.

00:28:28.777 --> 00:28:31.748
I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to be doing this, this and this and I don't know where to start.

00:28:31.748 --> 00:28:34.391
But what's the next needed thing?

00:28:34.391 --> 00:28:37.013
And I think that's well.

00:28:37.013 --> 00:28:38.895
Ashley came up with this podcast idea.

00:28:38.895 --> 00:28:39.876
She came to me with it.

00:28:39.876 --> 00:28:43.800
So I think, ashley, we were both kind of like we want to be doing something, what should we do?

00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:50.787
And we were like the next needed thing.

00:28:50.787 --> 00:28:52.189
Or Ashley was like the next needed thing is education.

00:28:52.209 --> 00:28:52.769
And that's how this was born.

00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:53.190
I love that.

00:28:54.672 --> 00:28:55.413
So what?

00:28:55.413 --> 00:29:05.625
The entire message of your book being about the small and the mighty, how can an ordinary person help change policy and what would you?

00:29:05.644 --> 00:29:07.247
tell folks listening today who are wondering what they can do.

00:29:07.247 --> 00:29:08.327
Yeah, this is another.

00:29:08.327 --> 00:29:13.574
Just to keep on the same thing If it seems too overwhelming to you.

00:29:13.574 --> 00:29:17.137
To be like my senator is terrible.

00:29:17.137 --> 00:29:19.701
I hate Bob.

00:29:19.701 --> 00:29:29.227
Whatever it is, he never calls me back.

00:29:29.227 --> 00:29:31.271
That's probably how most people feel when they think about their senator.

00:29:31.271 --> 00:29:32.334
He never calls me back.

00:29:32.355 --> 00:29:43.023
Stop thinking about trying to get your senator's attention and start thinking about trying to make changes at a level that you have a better chance of influencing.

00:29:43.023 --> 00:29:46.834
People actually have a tremendous amount of influence over their school boards.

00:29:46.834 --> 00:29:49.951
They actually have a tremendous amount of influence over their city councils.

00:29:49.951 --> 00:29:51.255
There's a really good chance.

00:29:51.255 --> 00:29:54.434
If you email your city counselor, there's a very good chance they're going to get back to you.

00:29:54.434 --> 00:30:01.654
There's a very good chance that if you show up at a city council meeting or a school board meeting, that you're going to get your time at the mic.

00:30:01.654 --> 00:30:02.826
You know what I mean.

00:30:02.826 --> 00:30:15.866
Like there's a really good chance of that and from there you can grow your capacity to make connections for organizations that, let's say, there's a change you want to see statewide.

00:30:16.307 --> 00:30:32.714
We want to ban book bans, or we want to make sure that all schools have the resources that they need, or we want to make sure that it's not easy for somebody to walk into a Bass Pro, buy an AR-15, and drive to a middle school.

00:30:32.714 --> 00:30:34.881
We want to slow down that process.

00:30:34.881 --> 00:30:37.288
So it's not a 15-minute endeavor, right?

00:30:37.288 --> 00:30:50.308
Whatever it is that you want to work on, joining organizations at a state level is a fantastic way to do that, because those organizations have contacts and infrastructure that you alone don't have.

00:30:50.710 --> 00:30:56.487
I think so often we think about it like I need to make it harder to get an AR-15 to shoot up a school.

00:30:56.487 --> 00:31:09.630
Me personally, I need to do that when, in reality, there are fantastic organizations that you can participate in, give money to and volunteer for, who have all of these connections that you personally don't have.

00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:26.297
And then from inside of that organization whatever it is Moms Demand Action or even just something smaller like the PTA at your child's school that from within that organization, you can develop more capacity, more context, a better understanding of how the system works.

00:31:26.297 --> 00:31:32.796
Whatever is feeling too overwhelming for you, join up with other people who feel overwhelmed.

00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:39.250
Right you Join up with other people who feel overwhelmed, right?

00:31:39.250 --> 00:31:42.061
Very infrequently is there somebody who is like I'm not overwhelmed by the enormity of the world's problems.

00:31:42.061 --> 00:32:07.087
The number of school shootings is fine with me, you know, like very infrequently, is that the perspective of an individual worth following, right, Join up with other overwhelmed people who are like the enormity of the problems in this state or this, this school or this world are too great for me alone, um, and together we can help shoulder each other's burdens.

00:32:07.087 --> 00:32:08.451
Together we can figure it out.

00:32:08.451 --> 00:32:12.508
You know, like my team likes to tease me that my middle name is figured out.

00:32:12.508 --> 00:32:16.433
My name name is Sharon, figured out McMahon, that that's my name and I will figure it out.

00:32:16.433 --> 00:32:22.250
Uh, and you better don't tell me that I can't figure it out, cause I'll just make me figure it out harder.

00:32:23.251 --> 00:32:26.987
Um so that, but that's my personality bent.

00:32:26.987 --> 00:32:31.073
Uh, I am not equipped to teach 12, three-year-olds at all.

00:32:31.073 --> 00:32:33.076
Okay, like I, that is not.

00:32:33.076 --> 00:32:34.218
I'm not good at that.

00:32:34.218 --> 00:32:35.200
Don't ask me to do that.

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.868
I have mad respect for people who do.

00:32:36.868 --> 00:32:38.773
Somebody needs to be good at that job.

00:32:38.773 --> 00:32:42.951
That's not me, but I will figure it out whatever it is.

00:32:42.951 --> 00:32:45.637
That's my like, unique personality traits.

00:32:45.637 --> 00:32:57.401
And that that actually leads me to my second point, which is that all of us are meant to do something different, and the idea that, like, we're all supposed to do the same thing, that's silly.

00:32:57.401 --> 00:32:59.666
That's silly that we're all supposed to do the same thing.

00:32:59.666 --> 00:33:03.355
That's not how any other part of the world works.

00:33:03.355 --> 00:33:03.876
Guess what?

00:33:03.876 --> 00:33:05.188
I need somebody to fix my car.

00:33:05.188 --> 00:33:07.613
I need somebody to do heart surgery.

00:33:07.613 --> 00:33:10.946
I need somebody to whose job it is to teach the three-year-olds.

00:33:10.946 --> 00:33:13.029
I need somebody who knows how to build bridges.

00:33:13.029 --> 00:33:20.948
Those can't all be my job, right, we would all be dead because the bridges would collapse and the heart surgery would fail.

00:33:22.090 --> 00:33:24.316
We would all be dead if all those things were my job.

00:33:24.316 --> 00:33:25.258
That's silly.

00:33:25.258 --> 00:33:29.032
We don't have that standard for anybody else, that everybody do everything.

00:33:29.032 --> 00:33:36.857
It is actually okay and needed and necessary for you to have skills and talents that you are good at.

00:33:36.857 --> 00:33:39.829
I can speak on a stage in front of 3,000 people.

00:33:39.829 --> 00:33:41.894
I can probably make them laugh and cry.

00:33:41.894 --> 00:33:46.570
That's my skill.

00:33:46.570 --> 00:33:47.593
I can do these other things.

00:33:47.593 --> 00:33:50.156
I can't build you a bridge to go jack.

00:33:50.617 --> 00:33:53.289
We ain't going nowhere if that's my job, you know what I mean.

00:33:53.371 --> 00:34:01.969
We're staying home, and that's not just acceptable, that's needed and necessary.

00:34:01.969 --> 00:34:03.010
We need people to do both of those things.

00:34:03.010 --> 00:34:07.547
So give yourself permission to have a couple of things or even one thing that is like your thing.

00:34:07.547 --> 00:34:16.708
That's actually how you move the needle much faster than if you try to just throw spaghetti at the wall and be involved in absolutely everything.

00:34:16.708 --> 00:34:20.675
The world needs what you bring to it.

00:34:20.675 --> 00:34:25.472
The world needs your skills and your viewpoint and the things that are on your heart.

00:34:25.472 --> 00:34:27.728
I would argue that you were given those things for a reason.

00:34:28.791 --> 00:34:39.894
I care a lot about education and I believe that I was born to be a teacher and those are my skills and my giftings and they're not other people's, and that's actually great.

00:34:39.894 --> 00:34:43.449
That's actually great that it's somebody else's job to do brain surgery.

00:34:43.449 --> 00:34:45.356
That's really great.

00:34:45.356 --> 00:34:48.306
And I don't look down on them because we have different skills.

00:34:48.306 --> 00:34:51.606
And the same thing is true about how you want to make change in the world.

00:34:51.606 --> 00:34:55.063
We need you to care about whatever it is.

00:34:55.063 --> 00:34:58.411
We need you to care about the trash on the side of the road.

00:34:58.411 --> 00:35:01.666
Somebody else needs to care about the school bus lanes.

00:35:01.666 --> 00:35:06.436
Somebody else needs to care about paid family leave, somebody else.

00:35:06.436 --> 00:35:12.925
You know like all of these are good and worthy things to care about, and it is okay if they're not all your thing to care about.

00:35:13.106 --> 00:35:14.210
Yeah, I think.

00:35:14.210 --> 00:35:15.614
Two things just from that.

00:35:15.614 --> 00:35:28.481
One is I love that you talked about getting involved with local organizations because since we have started the podcast and got engaged, especially in Ohio, we know a lot of people.

00:35:28.481 --> 00:35:32.476
Now Our network involves a lot of people from grassroots organizations here in Ohio.

00:35:32.476 --> 00:35:38.380
Rank the Vote Ohio, ohio Women's Alliance Ohio had an abortion amendment on the ballot last November.

00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:49.695
We were heavily involved in helping share accurate information on that ballot amendment, telling people where they could sign petitions and signatures, and so if you get involved locally, you do.

00:35:49.695 --> 00:35:56.920
It feels so nice because you see the impact you can make, and not even that you don't even have to join these orgs.

00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:00.773
But I would just tell people listening they love to have you.

00:36:00.773 --> 00:36:08.793
We have met so many people and not a single person has ever looked down on us for not knowing enough information or turned us away right.

00:36:08.793 --> 00:36:11.954
I mean, they are so happy to engage with people.

00:36:11.954 --> 00:36:12.976
That is what they want to do.

00:36:12.976 --> 00:36:15.106
They want to bring people into the fold.

00:36:15.567 --> 00:36:17.952
They're happy when you're like, hey, what do you guys do?

00:36:17.952 --> 00:36:21.688
Yeah, they actually enjoy answering that question.

00:36:21.688 --> 00:36:27.362
They enjoy engaging with people who don't know about an issue.

00:36:27.362 --> 00:36:31.173
That's often part of their mission and that's also, as you mentioned.

00:36:31.173 --> 00:36:32.237
You've grown your network.

00:36:32.237 --> 00:36:34.431
You've grown your capacity.

00:36:34.431 --> 00:36:36.197
You've grown your capacity.

00:36:36.197 --> 00:36:42.088
You've grown, you know, like from the beginning of this endeavor you are now.

00:36:42.088 --> 00:36:44.894
Your capacity has increased because of the work that you started.

00:36:44.894 --> 00:36:49.994
That was small, right so, and your capacity will change throughout the course of your life.

00:36:49.994 --> 00:36:56.748
When you are like the new mom of newborn twins, you have a different capacity than if your youngest child's 12.

00:36:56.748 --> 00:36:59.434
And you've had a lot of professional experience.

00:36:59.434 --> 00:37:07.630
So let go of this notion that it needs to be perfect right now, or I'm not going to change the world or whatever, and just do the next needed thing.

00:37:08.311 --> 00:37:09.655
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:09.655 --> 00:37:10.577
Just such a great answer.

00:37:10.577 --> 00:37:11.326
Thank you, sharon, for that.

00:37:11.326 --> 00:37:13.972
Okay, let's pivot a little bit here.

00:37:13.972 --> 00:37:24.480
I want to talk about patriotism, so specifically this idea that we can love our country while also being truthful about its history and not liking that history.

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.146
Can you just elaborate on this idea that is in your book?

00:37:28.146 --> 00:37:30.489
Definitely, but that both can be true at the same time.

00:37:30.987 --> 00:37:32.391
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:32.391 --> 00:37:35.452
I think it's an important question that either I feel like.

00:37:35.452 --> 00:37:52.387
So often people feel like either America is the greatest country in the history of the universe and it's the can do, it's like so wonderful and like freedom for everybody, and it's like just you have to agree with everything the world, the country's ever done, or you're not a patriot.

00:37:52.387 --> 00:38:05.481
A patriot, or you recognize where America has gotten it wrong and where it's still getting it wrong, and thus you really should hate it, because look at all of the things it's done.

00:38:05.481 --> 00:38:13.206
Give me a break that those are the only two options, and I don't think that's true.

00:38:13.206 --> 00:38:15.411
I think more than one thing can be true at the same time.

00:38:15.751 --> 00:38:17.012
Little kids understand this.

00:38:17.012 --> 00:38:20.797
Little children are capable of understanding that two things can be true at the same time.

00:38:20.797 --> 00:38:29.425
That, in fact, you can love your brother and also find him annoying when he takes your cookie Right.

00:38:29.425 --> 00:38:31.246
Like you can do both of those things.

00:38:31.246 --> 00:38:40.143
Um, that you, that you, uh, sometimes you hit your mom and then you feel bad about it later because you were having a temper tantrum.

00:38:40.143 --> 00:38:42.474
Like you can love your mom and sometimes you hit her and then you feel bad about later.

00:38:42.474 --> 00:38:43.978
Like both of those things are true at the same time.

00:38:43.978 --> 00:38:47.981
Little kids can understand these concepts of like two things can be true at the same time.

00:38:47.981 --> 00:38:51.635
But I think that some adults don't want to understand that.

00:38:51.635 --> 00:38:53.538
They wanted the world to be black and white.

00:38:53.538 --> 00:38:59.286
Children do not see the world in black and white in the same way that we do Some of us do.

00:38:59.286 --> 00:39:06.536
They don't cast everybody in the viewpoints of like angel or demon, good or bad, you know, hitler or Mother Teresa.

00:39:06.536 --> 00:39:07.936
Those are the only options.

00:39:07.936 --> 00:39:13.333
There's a lot of adults who think those are the only two options and that's just not true.

00:39:13.333 --> 00:39:14.378
That's never been true.

00:39:19.469 --> 00:39:21.275
I think if you love something, you love it enough to want it to be the best.

00:39:21.275 --> 00:39:23.621
It can be, just like you do with your own children or your own family.

00:39:23.621 --> 00:39:26.336
Do you guys have kids?

00:39:26.336 --> 00:39:28.132
I do, do you have kids?

00:39:28.132 --> 00:39:30.096
Okay, but you understand what I'm saying.

00:39:30.096 --> 00:39:33.603
You can see why is my child so sassy?

00:39:33.603 --> 00:39:38.231
Why is my child so sassy?

00:39:38.231 --> 00:39:38.692
They need to like this.

00:39:38.692 --> 00:39:39.132
Stop talking that way.

00:39:39.132 --> 00:39:39.793
Why is my child so selfish?

00:39:39.793 --> 00:39:48.574
Like you can see your own child's character, flaws of like my child needs to get organized or they're going to flunk out of second grade.

00:39:48.574 --> 00:39:56.197
You know, like you can see either flaws in your own children or your own spouse or your own best friend or whatever, and love them anyway.

00:39:56.197 --> 00:39:58.579
Right that those two don't preclude each other.

00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:03.869
Most of us guess what had imperfect parents your own children or your own spouse or your own best friend or whatever and love them anyway, those two don't preclude each other.

00:40:03.909 --> 00:40:10.630
Most of us guess what had imperfect parents Weird?

00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:13.840
Most of us can look back at our own parents and be like my mom did the following 12 weird things or crazy things or even terrible things.

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:14.481
And you can still love your mom.

00:40:14.481 --> 00:40:15.204
Those are not mutually exclusive.

00:40:15.204 --> 00:40:16.047
Your mom's perfect and thus you love her.

00:40:16.047 --> 00:40:16.809
And you can still love your mom, right.

00:40:16.809 --> 00:40:17.972
Those are not mutually exclusive.

00:40:17.972 --> 00:40:20.137
Your mom's perfect and thus you love her.

00:40:20.137 --> 00:40:23.293
No, you don't love her because she was perfect.

00:40:23.293 --> 00:40:37.365
You love your mom because she was your mom right, and so we want our children and our descendants and our country and our friends to be the best they can be, because we care about them, because we love them.

00:40:38.327 --> 00:40:44.141
These are not ideas that are weird in other aspects of our lives that two things can be true.

00:40:44.141 --> 00:40:45.371
The same is true of ourselves.

00:40:45.371 --> 00:40:48.940
We're all flawed, right, and we can want better for ourselves.

00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:50.333
We can work on self-improvement.

00:40:50.333 --> 00:40:56.896
We can have more self-control, more kindness and compassion, while also recognizing that we've done some cool stuff too.

00:40:56.896 --> 00:40:59.795
We can actually like ourselves while wanting to be better.

00:40:59.795 --> 00:41:02.041
Those are not mutually exclusive ideas.

00:41:04.512 --> 00:41:17.059
So to me, true patriotism is loving your country despite its flaws and wanting what is best for it and those are not mutually exclusive ideas.

00:41:17.059 --> 00:41:35.835
I think the word patriot has been co-opted in the United States by certain political groups that being a quote-unquote patriot means espousing a certain set of political beliefs and means agreeing with the stances of a certain political candidate.

00:41:35.835 --> 00:41:40.115
That that is what makes you a patriot, and I just disagree with that.

00:41:40.115 --> 00:41:41.298
I disagree with that.

00:41:41.298 --> 00:41:48.262
That if somebody puts on my gravestone someday my headstone that I was a patriot I would love nothing more.

00:41:48.262 --> 00:41:54.780
And that doesn't to me mean espousing a specific political ideology.

00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:59.195
To me that means loving your country enough to want what's best for it.

00:41:59.557 --> 00:42:19.496
Yeah, I really liked just having you talk about this because I know even years ago it felt like I don't know, patriotism had a kind of negative connotation for me personally and it took me getting involved and realizing that it's because I really and it took me getting involved in realizing that like it's because what I was seeing wasn't really patriotism, it was probably more nationalism.

00:42:19.496 --> 00:42:24.478
But you know, that helped me reframe because I've always been.

00:42:24.478 --> 00:42:29.422
I was raised in a household where I've never missed a vote Like my that's just my.

00:42:29.422 --> 00:42:30.782
It was kind of hard for me.

00:42:30.782 --> 00:42:45.114
I struggled probably the last couple of years with this and then as we got more involved and I learned more, I was like the reason I feel negatively towards this is because this isn't real patriotism.

00:42:45.114 --> 00:42:48.722
That's right, and so it's helped me kind of reclaim that a little bit.

00:42:48.722 --> 00:42:50.152
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:50.273 --> 00:42:50.873
How about we?

00:42:50.873 --> 00:42:53.639
I am all for reclaiming the word patriot.

00:42:53.639 --> 00:43:02.856
I am all for reclaiming our use of the American flag, which is, in part, why it is on the front cover of my book.

00:43:02.856 --> 00:43:22.713
I am all for leaving behind a version of nationalism that involves white Christianity, that is masked as patriotism, and removing that mask and reclaiming those words for what they truly mean.

00:43:22.713 --> 00:43:30.139
That doesn't mean, of course, you can't be a white Christian, be patriotic, but white Christian nationalism is a political ideology.

00:43:30.139 --> 00:43:31.523
It is not a religious belief.

00:43:31.523 --> 00:43:33.373
It is not patriotism.

00:43:33.373 --> 00:43:35.597
It's something different entirely.

00:43:35.597 --> 00:43:43.443
Yeah, like, let's take back what the word patriot means and let's take back our use of the American flag.

00:43:43.443 --> 00:43:45.027
I'm all for that, yeah.

00:43:45.188 --> 00:43:45.429
I love that.

00:43:45.429 --> 00:44:19.222
Yeah, I love you pointing out the American flag thing, because that's exactly how my kind of ick that I developed towards the word patriotism and the American flag kind of it showed I would see like an American flag on someone's house or something I'd be like, oh, like I know that type of person you know, and so, yeah, I think certainly within the past few months I've been more excited than ever to reclaim the image of the American flag and the word patriotism.

00:44:20.005 --> 00:44:25.822
Yes, and not in a sense of like icky nationalism, of like we'll put a boot in your ass.

00:44:25.822 --> 00:44:27.295
It's the American way.

00:44:27.295 --> 00:44:28.916
You know what I mean.

00:44:30.552 --> 00:44:31.012
Not the.

00:44:31.052 --> 00:44:42.751
Toby Keith version of beer for my horses you know like flag situation version of beer for my horses.

00:44:42.751 --> 00:44:48.282
You know like flag situation, but in the sense of no, I love this country too much to let it stay where it is and I love who lives here.

00:44:48.282 --> 00:45:02.376
I love Americans, and not in a gross icky the rest of y'all suck, but in a like, it's great to love your family and you can respect other people's families while you love your own family.

00:45:02.918 --> 00:45:04.541
Yeah, it's the same exact concept.

00:45:04.862 --> 00:45:07.836
I can love my own family and respect that you have a really cool family too.

00:45:07.836 --> 00:45:09.181
This is not.

00:45:09.181 --> 00:45:11.612
It's not weird Like kids can understand it.

00:45:11.612 --> 00:45:11.972
Why?

00:45:11.972 --> 00:45:14.699
Why do adult Americans have trouble with these ideas?

00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:15.940
I don't know yeah.

00:45:16.362 --> 00:45:19.592
Yeah, absolutely so.

00:45:19.592 --> 00:45:37.094
Something else you say in your book, and we know that you regularly remind us online about, is that things are not the worst they've ever been, or as some folks make it seem to be or tell us that they are, and so can you just share your thoughts on this, because we really admire your stance on this.

00:45:38.476 --> 00:45:49.996
Well, I'm going to hold your hand when I say this Not only is this not the worst it's ever been, this is the best it's ever been.

00:45:50.858 --> 00:46:02.777
You said, it Drops mic which people are like what they truly feel, like we're skidding into hell in a handbasket and everything is about to implode.

00:46:02.777 --> 00:46:10.711
Right, that's how it feels to some people, and a lot of that is the result of being assaulted with a fire hose, of incoming bad information on a daily basis.

00:46:10.711 --> 00:46:12.757
That's sort of direct result of that.

00:46:12.757 --> 00:46:24.675
Literally, it's not difficult to find all the things that are terrible about the world, so some of that is that's where that idea comes from, but the notion that this is the worst it's ever been.

00:46:24.675 --> 00:46:34.460
All you need to do is pick up any old history book and you can see that, like today, are you able to receive an education as a woman?

00:46:34.460 --> 00:46:39.072
Do you have a reasonable expectation that your children will live to adulthood?

00:46:39.072 --> 00:46:44.324
Are you unlikely to die from your tooth infection if you have a broken bone?

00:46:44.324 --> 00:46:52.393
Is your tribe going to leave you behind to be eaten by saber-toothed tigers because you are a detriment to them?

00:46:52.393 --> 00:46:56.222
The idea that guess what, it's illegal to enslave people.

00:46:56.222 --> 00:46:59.556
If you try to enslave people, we're going to put you in jail for doing that.

00:46:59.556 --> 00:47:11.958
Today I even talk about this in the book, like has anybody beaten somebody else to death on the floor of the United States Congress over the matter of whether it's acceptable to own other human beings this week?

00:47:11.958 --> 00:47:13.581
No, okay.

00:47:13.581 --> 00:47:15.353
So then, actually we're doing quite a bit better.

00:47:15.353 --> 00:47:19.094
Do you have a 30% chance of dying of smallpox during your lifetime?

00:47:19.094 --> 00:47:20.318
No, okay, great.

00:47:20.318 --> 00:47:27.244
I could go on and on and on about how much better things are than they are in the past.

00:47:27.244 --> 00:47:32.177
That doesn't preclude, though, the idea that we still have a long way to go.

00:47:32.177 --> 00:47:40.943
Saying this is the best it's ever been doesn't mean that we should just stay where we are and and like it's so much better, like girls can vote now give it up, you know, like who cares?

00:47:40.943 --> 00:47:52.456
It's not saying that we should stay where we are, but we need to let go of this fatalistic idea that, like, somehow the world is the worst and oh no, it just.

00:47:52.456 --> 00:47:53.697
It's the apocalypse.

00:47:53.697 --> 00:47:54.458
This.

00:47:54.458 --> 00:48:01.315
If you, if you think this is the apocalypse, how about live in like the 1830s?

00:48:01.315 --> 00:48:01.996
Okay, uh, let's try it.

00:48:01.996 --> 00:48:05.804
Try moving to the 1830s, and it will truly seem apocalyptic to you.

00:48:05.804 --> 00:48:21.534
Then, um, this is this, is not that you have a reasonable chance of driving or flying in a hollow metal tube that goes 700 miles an hour and safely deposits you on the other side of the world.

00:48:21.534 --> 00:48:23.898
That's, that is weird.

00:48:23.898 --> 00:48:27.047
That's weird, right like.

00:48:27.047 --> 00:48:31.039
And you get there safely, you fly, it goes 700 miles an hour in a hollow metal tube.

00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:34.293
And then you, you watch movies while you're doing that.

00:48:34.293 --> 00:48:35.077
That's weird.

00:48:35.077 --> 00:48:37.471
You can have a drink while doing that.

00:48:37.471 --> 00:48:43.532
Yeah, somebody will come around and offer you a beverage while you're in this hollow metal tube.

00:48:43.532 --> 00:48:45.074
And there's a bathroom what?

00:48:45.074 --> 00:48:47.438
There's a flushing toilet in this tube.

00:48:47.458 --> 00:48:52.414
When you think about it, that's an absurd idea.

00:48:52.414 --> 00:48:58.913
That's absurd when you realize that Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers had no idea what dinosaurs are.

00:48:58.913 --> 00:49:01.759
That's weird, right Like all of these things.

00:49:01.759 --> 00:49:07.847
When you start getting real deep in the time space continuum where you're like they didn't know about dinosaurs what?

00:49:07.847 --> 00:49:10.552
That's just bizarre.

00:49:10.552 --> 00:49:14.498
No, they sure didn't Look at how far we've come in 250 years.

00:49:14.498 --> 00:49:18.184
No, this is not the worst it's ever been.

00:49:18.184 --> 00:49:21.255
It's the best it's ever been.

00:49:21.315 --> 00:49:22.137
Yeah, I just think.

00:49:22.137 --> 00:49:23.161
I just love the perspective.

00:49:23.161 --> 00:49:39.181
I think it's so important to remind ourselves of that from time to time, because you can get in the doom loop and, yes, you're putting the constant information, but really, you know we all live in 2024 and you know there's so much we have access to that was never available before.

00:49:39.990 --> 00:49:47.371
Yeah, and I think your book really helped me realize that we really are in the best of times right now.

00:49:47.371 --> 00:49:57.523
Just reading about the 1800s I'm like, wow, I kind of forgot how kind of shitty everything was it was an eye-opener, a great reminder.

00:49:59.333 --> 00:50:02.601
Yeah, nobody is going to take your children from you and sell them.

00:50:02.601 --> 00:50:03.972
Oh my.

00:50:03.992 --> 00:50:07.969
God, I cried during those chapters just to let you know that really hit home for a mom.

00:50:08.771 --> 00:50:11.014
Yes, somebody is going to sell your children.

00:50:11.014 --> 00:50:15.099
That was the experience of millions of American women.

00:50:15.099 --> 00:50:19.405
Somebody sold their children and they never saw them again.

00:50:19.405 --> 00:50:40.380
The idea that, like you're reasonably protected from your children being sold into enslavement, that is like, come on, now, that's the best of times, right Again, not saying that all things are perfect and we don't have miles to go, but nevertheless the idea that that is very illegal today, that's a lot of progress, yeah absolutely.

00:50:41.391 --> 00:50:48.958
The story about Clara Brown, I think, was my favorite story of the book because of the reconnection with her daughter towards the end of her life.

00:50:48.958 --> 00:50:49.278
I just-.

00:50:50.494 --> 00:50:53.347
Spoiler alert what you haven't heard, the part yet.

00:50:53.347 --> 00:50:53.949
I'm so sorry.

00:50:54.530 --> 00:50:56.356
I just need for anyone listening.

00:50:56.356 --> 00:51:02.190
Oh yeah, um no, I was like I was reading through all, all the chapters of her section.

00:51:02.190 --> 00:51:04.273
I'm like, come on, sharon, tell me she's coming.

00:51:04.273 --> 00:51:06.679
Come on, she's got to reconnect.

00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:13.063
I know it can't end on a sad note, right yeah, okay.

00:51:13.184 --> 00:51:22.943
so we don't want this to come to an end, sharon, but we know you're a busy lady, so, um, we are, you know, to end with this one and hopefully it kind of ends on a very optimistic note.

00:51:22.943 --> 00:51:29.514
You've said that hope is not a feeling but a choice, and for anything to change we must not give up hope.

00:51:29.514 --> 00:51:34.231
So can you just explain why is hope so important and how do you stay hopeful?

00:51:35.574 --> 00:51:45.643
Yeah, I think we often we have come to believe and I'm not exactly sure why we believe this that hope is a feeling that we will experience.

00:51:45.643 --> 00:51:51.396
Much like somebody else makes you laugh, you would experience that other person as like, oh, they're funny, they made me laugh.

00:51:51.396 --> 00:51:56.463
Right, it's something that you are waiting for somebody else to do for you.

00:51:56.463 --> 00:51:58.733
It's a feeling you're waiting to experience.

00:51:58.733 --> 00:52:09.460
We think that hope is going to come from some other person who's going to give you hope, or we think it's going to come from you know, we wake up in the morning, the skies are blue and the birds are chirping.

00:52:09.460 --> 00:52:13.413
We just feel the sense of wellbeing and so hopeful and the world's going to get better.

00:52:13.413 --> 00:52:27.260
We think that it's one of those two things, and thus we are consistently disappointed and we consistently feel like there is no hope and that nothing can get better and it doesn't matter when.

00:52:27.260 --> 00:52:38.284
In reality, the stories in this book, and basically the entirety of human civilization, shows us that our ancestors did not wait to feel any sense of hope.

00:52:38.284 --> 00:52:41.695
They chose to have hope.

00:52:41.695 --> 00:52:45.885
Claire Brown, she had no business feeling hopeful.

00:52:45.885 --> 00:52:55.721
She knew probably dozens of other formerly enslaved women whose children were sold and who they never ever got to see them again.

00:52:55.721 --> 00:53:11.081
Most of the people in this book had no business thinking that someday they would feel hopeful about the future because their external circumstances would lead you to believe otherwise.

00:53:11.081 --> 00:53:14.572
Right, their external circumstances changed very little.

00:53:14.572 --> 00:53:19.431
Some people had a dramatic change in circumstances, but many did not.

00:53:19.431 --> 00:53:33.695
And the idea that if we are waiting around to feel hope and we're just going to keep on waiting, that is the place from where we tend to descend into that doom spiral of like nothing's ever getting better.

00:53:33.695 --> 00:53:35.121
I'm seeing no evidence of change.

00:53:35.121 --> 00:53:37.793
I tried that one thing, that one time, and nothing happened.

00:53:37.793 --> 00:53:39.630
And we, it, would just keep going around in the circle.

00:53:39.630 --> 00:53:52.001
Um, our ancestors, who made important change, chose to orient their, their self themselves, towards hope, and it was the hope that they did not feel, but that they chose.

00:53:52.001 --> 00:53:59.623
That becomes the fertile ground that can grow the seeds of change, and that they did not.

00:53:59.623 --> 00:54:03.458
Our ancestors did not grow weary in doing good.

00:54:03.458 --> 00:54:14.063
And I think again, we don't like to struggle, and it's easy for us to feel tired because we're not using these struggle muscles very often, and so we feel like, oh, it's just not worth it, I just have to give up.

00:54:14.063 --> 00:54:16.753
And so we feel like oh, it's just not worth it, I just have to give up.

00:54:16.813 --> 00:54:30.427
Most of the people in this book chose to have hope despite no change to their external circumstances, despite no good news on the horizon, despite no bright light of like oh look, I see the mirage in the future.

00:54:30.427 --> 00:54:31.588
That's a watering hole.

00:54:31.588 --> 00:54:34.259
Everything's going to change in just a couple more miles.

00:54:34.259 --> 00:54:38.114
Everything's going to change in just a couple more miles, despite no change in their external circumstances.

00:54:38.114 --> 00:54:49.065
They knew that good things don't grow in the bed of fatalism, of nihilism, of hopelessness.

00:54:49.065 --> 00:54:52.239
What good fruit can come from that?

00:54:52.239 --> 00:55:07.186
It's absolutely worth remembering today that good things do not come from something bad in the sense of like you can't grow beautiful things in garbage soil.

00:55:07.405 --> 00:55:21.574
You have to be willing to orient your spirit towards hope, even despite your external circumstances, and that actually is a tremendously freeing idea.

00:55:21.574 --> 00:55:28.512
It's actually tremendously freeing because we are no longer dependent on our external circumstances for hope.

00:55:28.512 --> 00:55:34.784
We no longer have to wait for somebody to come by and offer us hope.

00:55:34.784 --> 00:55:40.052
We can actually choose to have hope that's available to us at any time.

00:55:40.052 --> 00:55:53.909
It's available to us from any place, despite our external circumstances, and that actually makes me feel more hopeful that I'm not dependent on the right person winning an election.

00:55:53.867 --> 00:55:55.815
I'm not dependent on a ballot measure passing that I support.

00:55:55.815 --> 00:55:56.483
I'm not dependent on the right person winning an election.

00:55:56.483 --> 00:55:57.434
I'm not dependent on a ballot measure passing that I support.

00:55:57.434 --> 00:56:06.112
I'm not dependent on any policy or life circumstance or something happening on the other side of the world.

00:56:06.112 --> 00:56:10.983
That I can choose to have hope today despite my circumstances.

00:56:10.983 --> 00:56:25.097
To me, that actually brings me a tremendous amount of hope, and so do the people in this book who chose to have hope despite their circumstances.

00:56:25.097 --> 00:56:36.643
So I hope people that's like something that they take away when they read the book that hope is a choice and you no longer need to be.

00:56:36.643 --> 00:56:43.637
Hope is a choice and you no longer need to be controlled by somebody else offering you hope or by your life circumstances being perfect.

00:56:43.637 --> 00:56:49.496
That you can just choose this, in the same way that you make all kinds of choices in your life.

00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:54.353
Yeah, I love that so much, so inspirational, just really empowering.

00:56:54.353 --> 00:56:56.619
And so, yeah, we're, we're gonna wrap.

00:56:56.619 --> 00:56:59.619
I know we're right at the hour, sharon, so thank you so, so much.

00:56:59.619 --> 00:57:01.746
We are so grateful to have you on.

00:57:01.746 --> 00:57:04.297
You are an incredible storyteller, an incredible educator.

00:57:04.297 --> 00:57:07.829
Congratulations on your number one new york times bestseller.

00:57:08.351 --> 00:57:10.376
Yes, oh, my goodness.

00:57:10.376 --> 00:57:19.579
Um, yeah, we are so grateful and I just have to share that you are one of the first accounts that we followed when we started this podcast and created our social media for it.

00:57:19.579 --> 00:57:22.003
You've been a huge inspiration to us.

00:57:22.003 --> 00:57:29.184
It's been an honor to watch you blow up and educate America and be America's government teacher.

00:57:29.184 --> 00:57:36.675
You have surely taught us a lot, and this last hour of our lives has just been unbelievable and we are just so honored.

00:57:36.675 --> 00:57:37.657
So thank you, thank you.

00:57:38.038 --> 00:57:38.940
Thanks so much for inviting me.

00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:40.081
I appreciate the opportunity.

00:57:45.510 --> 00:57:52.070
And, if we will, you know, for our listeners, we will have all of Sharon's info linked in the show notes, along with links for where you can find her book, the preamble, her newsletter, her podcast and her Instagram, of course.

00:57:52.070 --> 00:57:54.893
Thank you, guys all for tuning in and we'll catch you next week.

00:58:02.163 --> 00:58:03.985
Thanks for joining us for today's episode.

00:58:03.985 --> 00:58:05.565
We really appreciate the support.

00:58:05.565 --> 00:58:14.210
We would also really appreciate it if you hit the follow button and share this episode with anyone you think would enjoy it, and we'd like to thank Kevin Tanner, who edited this episode.

00:58:14.210 --> 00:58:19.521
If you're interested in learning more about him and his services, his website and Instagram are in the show notes.

00:58:20.021 --> 00:58:21.230
With that, we'll see you next week.

00:58:33.297 --> 00:58:34.378
Excuse me move your mouse.

00:58:34.378 --> 00:58:36.099
It's in my way.

00:58:36.099 --> 00:58:43.003
You're good through sharon's meticulous, meticulous.